This
is the type of
question we have
to ask ourselves,
and the type of
thing we have
to be concerned
about. In the
Christian tradition,
we always speak
of purity of intention,
and it’s very
easy to use the
idea of purity
of intention but
then let the snake
into the Garden
of Eden. There
is a major problem
in the First World,
but especially
in the United
States, with the
popularity of
spiritual practice
today. I remember
hearing years
ago of a so-called
Zen teacher who
guaranteed enlightenment
at the end of
two years if you
paid $40,000 a
year. I’m sure
that his students
were enlightened
by the end of
two years. I also
think one of the
things that we
have to do in
connecting with
your remarks is
analyze some of
the other things
that we spoke
of earlier about
power, control,
and security.
These also come
into this: “I
am the most famous
speaker. I am
this, I am that,
I am something
else.” Yet, at
the same time,
I think we have
to realize that
we can’t stop
teaching.
Heng Sure
This
is a very useful
index and it cuts
close to the bone.
But it is culturally
specific. My community
is largely Chinese
language-based
or Chinese and
Vietnamese, almost
all second-generation.
I spend a good
part of my time
teaching in Asia
in Chinese, and
perhaps none of
these problems
apply. Instead,
a whole different
set of expectations
apply. The Asian
spiritual practitioner,
for example, has
a different set
of expectations
about the teacher
because the role
of the monk or
nun has been alive
in Asia for a
millennium, and
they are culturally
specific. For
example, monks
in the Chinese
Mahayana tradition
that I come from
are expected to
be healers, and
there is a shamanic
side to the monk.
People, particularly
old ladies in
China, take my
hand and put it
on their head
and ask me to
tap their head
to confer spiritual
blessings and
to heal them.
I have to say,
“I don’t do that.”
They say, “But
why not? Look
at your robe.”
What
I find helpful
from this index
is expressed in
the word bodhimanda,
“the
place of the way.”
Underneath the
original bodhi
tree was the original
bodhimanda,
the place of awakening.
If we say there
is a marketplace
mind where all
of your [Thubten
Chodron] criteria—and
we could probably
find more—apply,
and the monks
are just the next
seller of goods,
and if we move
that marketplace
mind into the
bodhimanda,
the place of enlightenment,
then you have
to say, “Let’s
leave that marketplace
mind at the door.
Come into the
place of the way
and talk about
what are the qualities
of seeking enlightenment.”
I think that’s
a helpful line.
Mary
Margaret Funk
I
would say that
Thubten Chodron
has such a moment,
starting a nunnery
at this time in
the American culture.
A lot of us have
learned a lot
of things we would
like to get out
of because the
systems are already
in place—so if
we don’t get to
it here, a lot
of us would like
to see you [Thubten
Chodron] later!
Thubten Chodron
I
would welcome
advice.
Leo
Lefebure
I
would like to
speak a bit from
my own experience
as a Catholic
diocesan priest.
Felix Machado,
Thomas Ryan, and
I may be the only
diocesan priests
here. However,
I think some of
the problems you
are talking about
would actually
be an improvement
in some ways in
a functional level
for diocesan priests.
Often, functionally,
we’ve done everything
we can think of
to get people
to leave, but
they keep coming
back. We’ve been
rude to them.
We’ve abused them.
We’ve done horrendous
things. And I
don’t mean just
the terrible sexual
scandals.
A
cousin of mine
was getting married
to a Lutheran
in a small country
church and had
an appointment
to see the priest.
They rang the
doorbell. Nothing
happened. They
rang the doorbell
again. Nothing
happened. Finally,
the priest came
and told them
very honestly,
“I heard you,
but I was hoping
you would leave.”
I could multiply
stories. In my
first parish,
there was an older
pastor. They had
trouble with graffiti
on the school,
and he was ranting
and raving from
the pulpit about
it and told everybody,
“I have a .22.”
Now these are
probably the teenagers
from the parish
that are doing
the graffiti,
so he was telling
their parents
he had a gun and
would shoot them.
We need to take
more seriously
the needs of the
people, and I
think the sexual
abuse scandals
are the most arrogant
example of this
type of abuse
of power, of just
complete disregard
for the needs
of the people.
Norman Fischer
I’m
glad you said
that. I was going
to ask people
from the Catholic
side about this,
because the other
side of consumerism
and capitalism
and so on is exactly
that—paying attention
to what people
need and trying
to accommodate
them, rather than
saying: “This
is our belief
system. This is
what we do. Actually,
we don’t really
care that much
what you need
and what your
concerns are.
This is what we
do.” Some happy
balance between
the two of these
is what’s needed.
It’s actually
a good thing that
people are interested
and wanting to
come. Nevertheless,
I was sitting,
squirming in my
seat when Thubten
Chodron was talking.
It was a very
unpleasant experience.
Joseph Goldstein
I
also very much
appreciated your
[Thubten Chodron]
talk and have
been grappling
with many of those
issues for the
last twenty-five
years. It seems
to me that a core
question, at least
from the teaching
side, is what
we do with mixed
motivations. We
would all like
to have totally
pure motives,
but I think there
are probably very
few of us who
do. Do we let
the mixture of
motives keep us
from acting, realizing
that there are
impurities there?
Or do we make
an effort to recognize
the mix, and as
best as possible
go in the direction
of purity? That’s
a great koan:
What to do with
that in our own
minds.
William Skudlarek
Whenever
I hear this question
of mixed motivations,
I think of that
wonderful phrase
of Martin Luther,
Pecca fortiter,
“sin bravely.”
I think what he
means by that
is that there
is no possibility
that we can act
from an entirely
pure motive. It
will always be
tainted by egoism.
“But go ahead,”
he says, “and
sin bravely. Do
it, and then rely
on mercy.”
Jim Funk
My
question is, though,
wouldn’t a criterion
of whether you
are successful
or not in your
teachings be what
these students
do after they
leave, and how
possibly you have
impacted their
lives? That would
seem to be more
important.
John Daido
Loori
I
wanted to mention
Shohaku Okumura’s
teacher. He probably
won’t tell you
about it, so I
will. When Shohaku
first came to
America, he went
to this little
Zendo somewhere
in Massachusetts
off the beaten
track and was
told explicitly
by his teacher,
“Don’t advertise.
Don’t proselytize.
Just sit.” That’s
all they have
to offer. Through
the years, and
he was there many
years, the message
was the same:
Don’t advertise.
I wonder how this
place is going
to survive. Nobody
knows about it.
Two or three people
go there, and
when they go there,
it’s just such
a grueling, excruciating
experience that
they never want
to go back. It
has remained this
very tiny place
off in the country
where one or two
of them till the
field. The teacher
has to work, giving
lectures at the
university in
order to take
care of his family.
That’s the other
extreme.
Mary Margaret
Funk
Do
you mind if we
ask him how he
does it first?
Shohaku Okumura
I’m
doing something
else now, and
I’m going to enter
the American Buddhist
Society. Now I’m
trying to start
a practice center
in Bloomington,
Indiana. I tried
to keep that tradition.
Regarding our
sesshin,
we just sit. We
have no lectures,
no chanting, no
dokusan,
just sitting.
We sit for fourteen
hours a day, for
five days. This
is really my koan
right now. What
I did in Massachusetts
was a kind of
extreme tool,
and it’s still
small. But to
be small is okay.
However, I wonder
whether it is
meaningful or
not to practice
and share the
Dharma in this
country with Americans.
So I want to open
a place and start
to welcome this
problem. It is
really a koan.
Thomas Keating
The
excellent presentation
we heard reminded
me that there
is something that
happened in the
field of psychology
that I think all
religions desperately
need to take note
of, and that is
the discovery
of the unconscious.
Not only are all
the faults that
were enumerated
in the talk present
on the conscious
level, but the
real problem is
that they have
their roots in
the unconscious,
where an enormous
amount of secret
energy goes to
sustain them.
Consumerism is
basically rooted
in those three
instinctual needs
that we’re born
with: security,
power, and approval
and affection.
When these are
frustrated, the
energy centers,
somewhat similar
to the first three
chakras, begin
to fossilize and
develop secret
habits that influence
not only our behavior
but our decisions
for all our life.
Unless
teachers can help
people find a
method in which
they can become
aware of the roots
of these faults,
activities, desires,
and aversions,
then all the teaching
in the world is
virtually useless.
It is especially
important for
leaders in the
churches or other
religions to be
aware of the dynamics
of their own unconscious;
otherwise they
are going unwittingly
to cause untold
suffering on their
students. A place
where you can
find this delightfully
laid out is in
The Dark Night
of the Soul
by John of the
Cross. One of
the preliminary
chapters is called,
“The Faults of
Beginners.” These
are people who
are not just converted,
but people who
have been practicing
discursive meditation
and rituals and
practices for
years, and they
just haven’t gotten
to the basic issue,
which is the confrontation
with the roots
of the false self,
the first three
energy centers,
you might say.
In
Christianity,
Lent is really
about the discovery
or the confrontation
of those issues.
It’s not just
a problem of mixed
motivation. It’s
a question of
how deeply we
feel called to
purify that motivation
to the roots.
Without that,
I don’t think
transformation
will happen. It’s
an issue that
is so important,
at least in the
Christian tradition.
Teaching novices
a lot of rules
and regulations
on how to behave
or hold their
hands or their
drinking cup in
formation is a
lot of baloney
compared to confronting
why they get angry
at their brothers,
or why they think
the superior is
a damn fool, and
all the other
spontaneous or
afflictive emotions
that arise when
the consumer aversions
or attractions
are frustrated.
Likewise, if they
are gratified,
then you fall
into the habits
of elation or
self-inflation
or presumption.
If they are frustrated,
you get guilt,
shame, humiliation,
depression, and
the others. This
seems to me the
very heart of
the ascesis.
Without a practice,
I don’t think
the teaching will
ever help, because
what we have to
find out is not
what somebody
else thinks, but
who the hell we
really are when
all the clothes
are removed.
—Dialogue
Continued
